Curse

geekling · Apr 05, 2007, 10:28 AM // 10:28

From the early April skill balance thread, changes to the Paragon.

Quote:

Paragon:

* "They're on Fire!": now only affects party members.
* Anthem of Envy: damage bonus increased to 10..25.
* Anthem of Fury: decreased recharge time to 10 seconds, now only affects party members.
* Anthem of Flame: now only affects party members.
* Anthem of Guidance: now only affects party members.
* Crippling Anthem: now only affects party members.

This small adjustment to the Paragon was made primarily to deal with Spirit/Chant issues. Since all Spirit attacks count as attack skills, these Chants were making offensive Spirits more powerful than they were intended. Anthem of Fury also received a slight recharge decrease to allow it to fuel Echoes more effectively, and Anthem of Envy's damage bonus was increased to reflect the difficulty of meeting the skill's condition.

Small adjustement for PvP Paragons perhaps, but a whopping huge one for the PvE Paragon.

Now only affects party members = No longer affect pets (Protection from "They're on Fire!" and in the case of a bear pet - the brutal mauling triggering anthem of flame/guidance/crippling anthem), minions ("They're on fire!"), NPC allies! (Everything.)

The ability to buff everyone, not just the party, is... sorry Was! one of the few remaining fortes of the Paragon in PvE. Where situations like having to babysit NPC allies through missions happens. Even if this is something that does not come up in PvP.

So I ask, or suggest...
If you are going through with this, and not find another way to rebalance the spirits/chants thing in PvP. Like the mentioned in the [Dev Update] thread, instead of party only, change the skill to 'non-spirit allies' only.

Throw us a bone here, some PvE-only skills that does what these nerfed skills used to to. What a paragon chants are supposed to do, make all allies more effective - including NPCs, pets and minions.
Tie them to Sunspear ranks if you must. Just please, at least let the Paragon keep this little bit of usefulness in PvE.

ayame ftw · Apr 05, 2007, 10:43 AM // 10:43

u are a funny guy, paragons are not existing in high end pve anyways
pve groups are:
3 fire nukers
tank
necro (ss, mm)
2 monk
random char (3e monk, extra bip necro, 4th nuker, barrage ranger)

paragons are not existing in pve

geekling · Apr 05, 2007, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayame ftw

u are a funny guy, paragons are not existing in high end pve anyways

I know this is a difficult concept to grasp. But there are more to the PvE game than just the so called "high end" gimmick PvE.
Quite a few people even enjoy it.

ayame ftw · Apr 05, 2007, 11:14 AM // 11:14

look i have a paragon to,
i don’t like it either that my paragon is so ineffective.
Even in pvp paragons are not that great, in ha they are only used to spike with. The support role of the paragon is totally gone... a full motivation paragon = useless.
Paragon elites are just worthless, if u look at the paragon spikes the elites are:
Expel hex
Blood is power
Charge
Anthem of purification
Sometimes there is a spear elite instead of one of the above
I think that says enough…

There was nothing wrong with the paragon as support character before the big paragon nerf. The nerf was needed because of the problem of more then 1 paragon in a pvp team the defense was to strong, u could not kill them. But I have to agree with u that that nerf killed the purpose to have one paragon in a team pve and pvp wise. They nerfed the paragon to a half ass monk, ranged warrior type of guy…
If I want good ranged melee damage I would not be afraid to use my paragon, but for no other purpose…

geekling · Apr 05, 2007, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Well, you see, the reaction of Lulz! they've killed the paragon!1!eleventyone!!!11 letz go play some 55-monk insteadz!! - Isn't good enough for me.

But this last nerf, was the drop that made the beaker floweth over...

If they are incapable of balancing the PvP aspect of the paragon without killing off the whole purpose of it in PvE, then just be done with it. Either remove the profession alltogether or give us those PvE-only skills already.

PvE-only skills that emulates the ones they've destroyed - it's a start. It would be nice to see them give them a bit of a boost. Say change the PvE-only version of 'anthem of flame' to trigger on the next attack, rather than the next attack-skill used. So any pet, not just bears would reap the benefit... And paired with a MM, oh my!
That'll never happen, but hey. A girl can always dream.

Fender · Apr 05, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

I don't know why they changed them to "party members" instead of "non-spirit allies."

However, this is a test update. Maybe they'll compromise and change it to non-spirit allies.

BlackSephir · Apr 05, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fender

I don't know why they changed them to "party members" instead of "non-spirit allies."

Minions? Minions were 'non-spirit allies' but they're not party members...

Folken ~oOo~ · Apr 05, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

If you have a brain, you can play any char in "High end PvE Areas" ...

I do play Parangon and Ritualist

Fender · Apr 05, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Minions? Minions were 'non-spirit allies' but they're not party members...

All spirit attacks count as skills. Minion attacks don't. I don't see the problem w/ these affecting minions, or pets, for that matter.

Darth Kukulkan · Apr 05, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

I have an elementalist, and I hate thoose who belive we are only the "fire nuker"... ayame, I just think you believe you belong to the elite pve, but the elite is maybe a bit smarter than you.
Pyromancer arn't fun at all to play, you know there are OTHER elements... and that's the same for N, M, W(morons), and any other "elite class" even though I think the holy trinity is still there and for a long time

that's a shitty way, and player who just think in terms of "elite", effectivness, and so, they are no more players they are workers, and GW is their job... GetALife m0r0ns

Nightmare Angel · Apr 05, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folken ~oOo~

If you have a brain, you can play any char in "High end PvE Areas" ...

I do play Parangon and Ritualist

Here, here.

I too play a Paragon and I've completed Nightfall with him. These changes are a bit of a setback, but if your party doesn't have either a MM, B/P or rit lord, then there's no problem.

Winterclaw · Apr 05, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Paragons fall into the same category as mesmers in the fact that they aren't as great a PvE class as others. Yeah there are some builds for them that they can pug with, but overall the AI doesn't usually require you to use their support skills and their attacks are okay, but nothing special.

HawkofStorms · Apr 05, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayame ftw

u are a funny guy, paragons are not existing in high end pve anyways
pve groups are:
3 fire nukers
tank
necro (ss, mm)
2 monk
random char (3e monk, extra bip necro, 4th nuker, barrage ranger)

paragons are not existing in pve

What an awesome flamebait with terrible grammer. *rolls eyes*

Anyway, its kinda the same thing as the nerf with shields up. A.net want to reduce the amount of "passive defense" and require more thinking with classes like the paragon. Even though I hate playing the paragon and have yet to meet a guy in PvE who plays one well, I do love Sologan [motivation henchman]. Its not that they are bad, its just that they, like mesmers whom I love to play, are a real thinking man's class. Since the average GW player is a 14 year old idiot, they don't get a lot of love.

captainccc · Apr 05, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Well the only reason that those classes are considered "high end elite" (or best for) classes are because, compared to other MMO's, its all you need. The practical MMO party goes as follows: Healer, Tank, Support, Damage Dealer.

From the first campain ALL of those are available. The next 2 campains tried to offer jobs that could be of help to this party, and even replace some of the roles. The first professions from prophecies are so stacked because they've been played the most, have skills that have been thought out more than others, and frankly they are the bare minimum (sometimes most effective) thing you need in a party.

This being said I think that the four "new" classes do have a spot in "high end pve". They just haven't really found their immediate role yet, which comes with time and updates. The assassin and ritualist are actually pretty found out in their potential. This is why I cant wait for EotN to come out because this is ALL "high end pve" and I think Anet is going to throw things at us that require the aid of the paragon/dervish. Then all these people that say they have no place will eat their words. Maybe they dont have a place NOW (even though I personally think they do) they will definetly have a place in EotN (or at least I can hope). So dont fret, the paragon is still being tested in many ways, as well as being shaped and moulded by Anets updates/tests. IMHO we'll be seeing a lot more of the dervish/paragon in EotN

-CaptainCCC

gameshoes3003 · Apr 05, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

And I thought the nerfing for "Incoming" was enough. Capped this freakin elite a little bit before they nerfed it to hell. Though I can see why they did after watching a few guild battles with 4 paragons spamming Incoming. But now, 3 seconds?!?!?! Unless if they buffed it a little... Haven't played yet lol. But still, 3 seconds was pretty lame.
Anyway, I think the paragon is starting to lean towards the warrior side. That meaning, less helping allies, more attacking.
I'm sure when Eye of the North comes out, there'll be a lot of skills to fill in the blanks. Maybe their setting up the game for it...